What Digital Discipleship Can Look Like at Your Church

Tom Pounder • May 23, 2024

Digital Discipleship has grown leaps and bounds in recent years.


And the future is bright for what lies ahead as ministers learn how to continue to use technology to disciples people. That is why DK Hammond is back on the podcast. Today, we talk about what you can do now and what are some of the more effective ways to disciple people digitally today. 


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ACTION STEPS:

  • What do you think? What questions do you have? Share your thoughts on social media.
  • DK is a great resource and is always open to chatting about digital and online ministry. You should connect with him on Twitter/XThreads or check out the Social Media Church Podcast
  • Join the Digital Bootcamp Facebook Group. To learn how to be more effective using digital tools for your ministry join the group. This is for ALL Ministers, not just Church Communicators or Social Media Managers as we share resources, tools and digital trends to see how we can reach more people for Christ with these tools.
  • If you are in Digital Ministry, be part of the Digital Ministry Twitter Community. We share daily encouragement and support to help you do ministry in this online world more effectively. Click here to be part of it.
  • Looking for a Coach or Guide to help you with social media and other digital ministry tools? Take this quick assessment and connect today. 
  • Sign up for the Sidekick Scoop Weekly Email. Each Friday get a fresh email with content from all over the ministry world (especially online and student ministry topics) and be encouraged in how you can minister more effectively in today's world. 
  • If you have an idea for a topic or a person for Tom to interview for a future podcast episode, email here.

What do you think? Share your ideas on Discord or on social media.


Through the.Church.digital, we are helping physical and digital churches better understand the discipleship process, and helping churches and church planters understand this and other decentralized mindset shifts. By taking this quick assessment we can get you connect with a coach, resources and more. Also, check out our Discord Group where we are encouraging people daily. 

How to Reach the Nones in Your Community
By Tom Pounder 20 Jun, 2024
How are you reaching the "nones" in your community? The "nones" are those who do not attend Church, nor do they have any interest in attending. Today, Mark MacDonald shares a few tips churches can implement to reach those in your local and online communities . Mark is a church branding strategist for BeKnownForSomething.com , a national church communication and branding agency, coaching pastors and thousands of churches to become relevant in their community. He is also a best selling author and has written over 800 magazine articles. Subscribe: Apple Podcast Android Spotify | RSS ACTION STEPS: Mark is a great resource. He’s on Twitter and has a great website with resources and great insights. Join the Digital Bootcamp Facebook Group . To learn how to be more effective using digital tools for your ministry join the group. This is for ALL ministers , not just church communicators or social media managers as we share resources, tools and digital trends to see how we can reach more people for Christ with these tools. Looking for Digital Ministry Coaching ? The Church Digital is offering a variety of digital, phygital or metaverse ministry coaching and cohorts. If you are in digital ministry, be part of the Digital Ministry Twitter Community . We share daily encouragement and support to help you do ministry in this online world more effectively. Sign up for the Sidekick Scoop Weekly Email . Each Friday get a fresh email with content from all over the ministry world (especially online and student ministry topics) and be encouraged in how you can minister more effectively in today's world. If you have an idea for a topic or a person for Tom to interview for a future podcast episode, email here .
The Case for Digital and Meta Churches
By Jeff Reed 19 Jun, 2024
We're launching something different. The first of its kind, theChurch.digital will champion digital and meta church movements here in the US and around the world. theChurch.digital will champion movements of digital disciple-making , Digital/Meta Mission Field, and Digital Church. A network of networks, the focus of the Digital Church Network is to help any and everyone understand the opportunities and challenges of Digital and Meta spaces. Our heart, however, is a far more personal approach. Reaching the World, One Conversation at a Time The allure of digital is that it can reach massive numbers of people, easily. Thanks to smartphones and social media, each of us has the potential ability to reach thousands of people with these devices in our pockets. But as James 1 reminds us, we need to be more than hearers of the word. We must be doers in the real world as well. This is the multiplicative heartbeat of theChurch.digital. Helping digital churches move past a consumeristic approach towards a better understanding of disciple-making in digital and meta spaces . Let's stop deceiving ourselves. Starting Something Different, In Different Environments Is it better to have a million person church, or 100,000 churches of 10? I love this question, because I believe logic is truly tested on extremes. Let me pause and back up. I do not want to bemoan the current model of church. Our physical buildings and our broadcasting of church services online can be effective in reaching, connecting and discipling people. Researches show that active church involvement is down 25% over the past 25 years, so we can safely say that the physical model is losing effectiveness. Physical approach will continue to play a role for years to come. But we can no longer treat it as the only model of church. As culture shifts, so should the Church's strategies and tactics. Jesus is the same, yesterday today and forever. No one is arguing that. Our churches need to hold to the ecclesiology, the biblical standards in place. Digital/Meta Churches offer a chance to reimagine this ecclesiology for digital and meta spaces, for the purpose of reaching different people. Digital/meta churches must cling to the Bible as the guidelines for church. What is an essential ecclesiology for our churches, and what does it look like to map this essential ecclesiology across cloud services and the metaverse? This is the experiment that a digital/meta church planter gets to explore in the coming months and years. Reaching Different Types of People As controversial as the idea of digital and meta churches are, we cannot lose sight of this one fact, and this is validated from digital and meta churches around the world... Digital/meta churches are reaching a different type of person than our physical buildings are reaching. These digital/meta churches tell stories of reaching 80% atheists/agnostics , or 70% de-churched. I've heard stories of satanists coming to Jesus through relationships built in the metaverse. I've met the people who have found Jesus even though they swore they'd never go to a church building again. Remembering, though, our digital and meta churches cannot just stop with salvation. Discipleship, or should we say disciple-making (with an emphasis on action/multiplication), is a vital to starting movements in digital/meta spaces. Utilizing Different Methods of Discipleship It's this multiplicative approach to discipleship that is so crucial to the future of our churches. As the Great Resignation impacts our economy (pastors and churches included) more and more research is showing us that people, when they have spiritual questions, are not going to a paid pastor, a building, or a livestream for spiritual answers to those questions. These people with spiritual questions are going to their friends who they think have spiritual answers to these questions. The future of our church is not sermons blasted from microphones... it's empowering people, discipling them to have individual, spirit-led conversations as opportunities present, and intentionally pray for conversations to come. Here's what I've come to understand. Discipleship looks different, depending on the environments that discipleship is happening. Physical discipleship is definitely doable, but there are other ways as well. Discipling someone via Zoom, or on a Discord server? Well, this looks completely different than physical discipleship. What would a disciple-making multiplication movement look like in the metaverse? Honestly, this is one of the questions we want to answer! And while some of this is unproven on a large scale, we can state this as a fact... we're reaching and discipling a different type of person in these digital and meta environments than our buildings are discipling. Along that same path, we're now empowering a different type of leader. Empowering a Different Type of Leader Digital and meta churches often use a different type of leader than our physical buildings will utilize. This isn't that far of a stretch. These digital and meta churches reach a different type of person than our buildings reach, and they employ different methods of discipleship than our buildings utilize. So why wouldn't the discipleship process yield a different type of leader? Typically our physical buildings require a "catalytic leader", someone that can stand onstage and through their personal charisma lead hundreds or even thousands of people to action. Digitally, what we're finding is that charisma is often overstated in digital and meta spaces. What leads well is relational connection. Simply, charisma leads to consumerism. Relationship leads to action. Truthfully, recruiters or networkers often do very well in digital and meta spaces, and we've seen these types of leaders succeed in these unique environments. Another misconception is that the leaders do not have to be experts of the technology. Because of the relational nature of digital and meta environments, it's vital that these new leaders engage relationally. Most leaders, in fact, are not experts to the technology as much as natives in the technology. There are usually volunteers or part-time roles that become the technical experts. Digital or meta churches can be very technical. But they do not have to be. Through my own unscientific research, I've found that a larger-than-normal percentage of digital and meta planters are bi-vocational or co-vocational. Of the 200 some conversations I've had with people that are wanting to plant (or experiment) with a digital or meta church, 75% of them are interested in a bi-vocational or co-vocational ministry model. They're not looking to do ministry full-time in a physical church building, or even full-time online. They're looking to do ministry in addition to their job. Bivo/Covo is not a new approach in church planting, but what we're finding is bivo/covo support looks very different than supporting a typical church planter. Are you ready for something different? Are you interested in learning more about what it means to plant a Digital Church through the movement systems of theChurch.digital? If so, check out the Movement System and learn more.
Tools and Apps that Help Ministers Stay Productive
By Tom Pounder 13 Jun, 2024
As a ministry leader, it can often feel like there are never enough hours in the day to get everything done. Between sermon and message preparation, admin work, pastoral counseling, and community outreach, the to-do list can seem endless. However, leveraging the right digital productivity tools and apps can help you stay organized and maximize your time. Here are some tools and apps ministers can use to stay productive: Project Management Tools A good project management tool is essential for keeping you organized. In just one place you can have all your ministry initiatives, events, and tasks organized, not just for you to see but for your staff and key volunteers. Some of the popular options are apps such as Trello, Asana, and Monday.com. They allow you to create project boards, assign tasks with due dates, attach files, and collaborate with staffers and key volunteers. It really helps to keep you organized and prevents important details from slipping through the cracks. Note-Taking Apps Where do you put all your notes? Is there one central place or are they scattered on this notepad or that notepad? The reality is that inspiration strikes at different times. Whether it is a sermon illustration or ministry program idea that comes to mind or just notes you are taking for a meeting, you need a way to quickly write it down before it escapes your mind. There are great apps like Evernote, OneNote, and Google Keep that enable you to jot down notes, record audio clips, snap photos, and organize everything in an easily searchable way across all your devices. Cloud Storage In ministry, you constantly need to access, edit and share documents, media files, and other resources both individually and as a team. Cloud storage solutions like Dropbox, Google Drive, Box and OneDrive keep everything centralized, backed up, and accessible from anywhere. If you need to give people access to see your documents or files, you can give permissions to others and let them collaborate on any file in real-time. Social Media Management Tools In today's world, it is important for Churches, ministries and ministry leaders to have an active presence on social media. Channels like Facebook, Instagram, Twitter/X, YouTube and TikTok give you opportunities to engage your local and online communities. But, how do you create and share digital encouragement for each of these platforms? After all, manually creating posts for each platform is incredibly time consuming. The good news is that there are tools such as Hootsuite, Buffer, and Sprout Social that allow you to schedule updates across the multiple platforms from one simple interface. Check them out as they have a variety of free and paid price points. Conclusion As with anything, there is no silver bullet that will cure all your productivity needs. However, there are plenty of apps that can help you as you seek to minister to people today. Look over the different apps and be intentional about which ones you adopt. Then, configure them for your needs, and consistently use them as you seek to minister to more people.
4 Keys to Sharing a Sermon Online
By Tom Pounder 12 Jun, 2024
Sermons and messages from ministry leaders don't just have to be shared in person these days. In fact, they are often recorded at church live in video and audio formats to reach more people with the message of hope found in Christ. While people often take the sermon from the in-person church service to share online, these are not the only ways ministers can share about Christ today. Ministers can record shorter messages, devotionals and interviews of people sharing their faith stories. While anyone can record and share a video message, there are some tips that ministers can and should incorporate into them to make them more effective in the online environment. After all, communicating effectively on video platforms is a little different than sharing live, in person. So what can you do? What are some key points ministers should be incorporating into their message? Here are a few ideas: Prioritize Engagement Over Entertainment While it is important to keep their attention when teaching, the primary goal should be engagement, not entertainment. Make sure your message is theologically sound and practical as you ask thought-provoking questions and interactive with the people who are watching your message as you give them practical next steps they can take to grow in their faith. Keep engaging with them so they remain hooked on your message throughout the entirety of it. Maximize Eye Contact and Energy When preaching live, you feed off the energy of the room. With video, you have to manufacture that energy yourself. Look directly into the camera lens frequently to create the feeling of eye contact with viewers. Use passionate vocal inflection and animated gestures to keep people engaged. However, be careful not to go overboard to the point of theatrics. Share Compelling Stories Stories are powerful tools for illustrating key points of a message in a way that people can relate to and remember. Stories that often work best are personal stories as it makes you relatable and people can identify with you more. Hook Early and Often People often decide if they want to continue listening to a video within a few seconds. That is why it is important to hook them with a question or story early. But, you have to continue to keep them hooked as it is easy to tune out to a video you are watching. Continue to ask questions, share stories or ask them to comment on your video while you are sharing. The more you can keep them engaged and listening, the longer they will watch. Conclusion Giving the message and sharing the gospel is one of the most important things a minister can do. These four tips can help ministers maximize the effectiveness of their message on video platforms like online streaming, podcasts, and social media.
What's Happening with Ministry in the Metaverse?
By Tom Pounder 06 Jun, 2024
Ministry is happening in the Metaverse and VR. But what exactly? Stuart McPherson comes on the podcast to talk about what is happening and how churches can move forward with ministry in digital spaces like the metaverse. Check out Stuart’s Metaverse Learning Community with theChurch.digital. You can find Stuart's book, " Your Church In VR: How To Plant A Church In Virtual Reality " on Amazon. Subscribe: Apple Podcast | Android | Spotify | RSS ACTION STEPS: Share your thoughts! What do you think? Share below or on social media by connecting with Tom . If you want to connect with Stuart you can find him on Twitter/X . You can also check out his podcast " Metaverse Church " and his blog . Join the Digital Bootcamp Facebook Group .To learn how to be more effective using digital tools for your ministry join the group. This is for ALL ministers, not just church communicators or social media managers as we share resources, tools and digital trends to see how we can reach more people for Christ with these tools. Looking for Digital Ministry Coaching ? The Church Digital is offering a variety of digital, phygital or metaverse ministry coaching and cohorts. Just click here . If you are in digital ministry, be part of the Digital Ministry Twitter Community . We share daily encouragement and support to help you do ministry in this online world more effectively. Sign up for the Sidekick Scoop Weekly Email .Each Friday get a fresh email with content from all over the ministry world (especially online and student ministry topics) and be encouraged in how you can minister more effectively in today's world. If you have an idea for a topic or a person for Tom to interview for a future podcast episode, email tom@thechurch.digital .
By Tom Pounder 05 Jun, 2024
Longer daylight, allergies and warmer weather. May really starts to amp up the summer vibes. As summer approaches, there has been a lot happening in the digital and online ministry world, as well. To help you keep up with all the new digital and online ministry trends and happenings, The Church Digital Podcast Network and Blogs had a bunch we loved to share in regards to all the latest trends in social media, live stream, digital discipleship and all things online ministry so that you can minister and serve your online community more effectively. Here are 5 online ministry insights and lessons learned from some of the podcasts released on The Church Digital Podcast Network and the blog from May 2024. Learn in Community There are lots of ways you can learn. One great way is to learn in community. the.Church.digital has two great opportunities for you to learn in community now. One is through Discord where online ministers from all different backgrounds get together to share insights, ask questions and build a community of ministry leaders. The other way is through Learning Communities starting in July. These communities are centered around a specific topic and can really help you grow in that specific area. Jeff and Andy talk about all learning community options in the podcast. Cybersecurity is ESSENTIAL for Your Church Over the years church security has been important. After all, you do not want to have people breaking into your Church building. However, in today's world, churches need to be protecting their digital and online "buildings" as well. See how and why it is essential for churches to embrace cybersecurity . There are MANY VR Volunteer Roles VR and metaverse ministry is still relatively new. However, as it continues to grow, there are volunteer roles that are necessary to help those looking to discover God there. Stuart talks to Christina, who is a volunteer with Fox River VR. She shares what it’s like to be a volunteer for a church in VR . Be FOCUSED In Your Digital Communications Being focused in your digital communications is so important these days. That is why Jeff Reed and Barbara Carneiro chat about the importance of clarity and language in ministry and digital communication . They talk about the need for individuals and organizations to have a clear vision and message that can be easily understood and shared while also discussing the challenges and opportunities of fundraising in ministry and the importance of storytelling in casting vision. Your Church SHOULD BE On YouTube Youtube is a powerful tool for your digital and online ministry. While there are many reasons how Youtube can work for your church , there are 3 big reasons why. Start experimenting today to reach that next generation for Christ.
4 Digital Tools That Help Enable Pastoral Care and Counseling
By Tom Pounder 04 Jun, 2024
Pastors and ministry leaders have many roles and responsibilities. While many roles seem to take higher priority, providing quality pastoral care and counseling is of significant importance. It's a real opportunity to minister and walk alongside people in the community and church as they experience life's joys and struggles. Ministers can care for them as they offer biblical wisdom, prayer, and support every step of the way. In today's world, having access to technology gives ministers and pastors powerful tools that can enhance and expand their pastoral care efforts. Here are four digital tools that will help enhance pastoral care and counseling opportunities for ministers today. Online Scheduling Tools To schedule appointments in the past, you would have to call the church office and schedule. However, with great apps like Calendly and AppointmentPlus, it provides Church attendees and people in the community to easily schedule appointments for themselves. It takes an extra step or two out of the old process and really streamlines the scheduling process. Video Counseling Platforms When Covid hit, it gave the world the chance to embrace digital tools to help communicate and build community. Zoom and video conferencing platforms really help people connect and it can help ministers connect with people needing counseling as well. This is really helpful for people who need to talk to a minster but are homebound or cannot make it to an in-person meeting. There are also great HIPAA-compliant platforms like BetterHelp and Faithful Counseling facilitate secure video sessions for pastoral/christian counseling. Prayer Team Support Pastors and ministry leaders are called to be prayer warriors. They are also called to empower others to be prayers warriors, as well. By setting up an email address like prayer@(yourChurch).com or a page on your website, you enable people needing prayer and support a place to go at any time, knowing that someone will be praying for them right then and there. Group Messaging Apps Sometimes pastoral care happens spontaneously and informally throughout the day. Setting up apps like WhatsApp, Signal, or other similar and secure group messaging apps make it simple to quickly send an encouraging Bible verse to someone who is in need of encouragement. You can check in on someone who is struggling, or rally friends to surround a member with prayer in their time of need. Conclusion While technology cannot replace the importance of in-person presence, these digital tools have the power to expand how ministers connect with congregations through pastoral care and counseling. See how leveraging a few to increase accessibility and impact.
Key Digital and Online Analytics to Track for Churches
By Tom Pounder 28 May, 2024
How do you know if you are being effective in your digital and online ministry? As churches seek to engage with and reach more people online for Christ, it's very important to be able to track the right analytics. After all, how can you possibly know you are being effective or not if you can't look over the numbers across your online platforms. By monitoring and keeping track of key social media metrics, you can better understand your audience, optimize your content strategy, and measure the impact of your efforts.
Why Cybersecurity Matters for Churches
By Tom Pounder 22 May, 2024
Churches are increasingly using technology to connect with people, share resources, and facilitate ministry opportunities today. Anything from maintaining websites and social media presences to enabling online giving and storing data, the church's digital footprint continues to grow daily. While this is great, there also comes a new threat to the Church as a whole.
Why Riverside.fm is the Perfect Tool for Your Podcast
By Tom Pounder 21 May, 2024
Let's talk about what Riverside.fm is real quick. It is Zoom on steroids. Not only does it give you the option to record audio and video, the quality of those are fantastic. Much better than other platforms. And now, with the emergence of AI, it uses AI to create Magic Clips that at a tap of your mouse, they can create clips for you to share on all social media platforms in less than 5 minutes.
By jeff 16 May, 2024
As ministers and followers of Christ, one of our primary responsibilities is to guide and lead others to Christ. However, effective leadership goes beyond delivering sermons and Bible studies. It means to continue train and equip people to take next steps in their faith and to grow as leaders.
By jeff 15 May, 2024
While online ministry has differences to in-person ministry, there is one very specific similarity. That is you want to reach as many people for Christ as possible. Who you reach is different, but you want to reach as many people for Christ as possible because ministers know that transformational power and hope of Christ.
By jeff 14 May, 2024
2024 for The Church Digital has been incredible. When I started The Church Digital in 2018, the goal was to help the big “C” church better understand digital ministry, moving beyond just broadcasting online services and understanding digital connection, community, and discipleship. In 2019, we started meeting people with a vision to launch a digital church… a church without a building. Early pioneers like DJ Soto, Angela Craig, and Mark Lutz were setting an example for others to follow.
By jeff 09 May, 2024
  What is Discord and how can your Church utilize it for ministry purposes? Today, Andy Mage joins the podcast to talk about all of that and how Digital and Online Ministers can join The Church Digital Discord to learn together in community.  Subscribe: Apple Podcast | Android | Spotify | RSS   ACTION STEPS: What do you think? What questions do you have?  Share your thoughts with us below or on social media If you want to connect with Andy check him out on Discord (Chinomage) and Threads. He is very active on social media so definitely connect with him if you have a question. Make sure you follow him as well! Join the Digital Bootcamp Facebook Group. To learn how to be more effective using digital tools for your ministry join the group. This is for ALL Ministers, not just Church Communicators or Social Media Managers as we share resources, tools and digital trends to see how we can reach more people for Christ with these tools. If you are in Digital Ministry, be part of the Digital Ministry Twitter Community. We share daily encouragement and support to help you do ministry in this online world more effectively.  Sign up for the Sidekick Scoop Weekly Email. Each Friday get a fresh email with content from all over the ministry world (especially online and student ministry topics) and be encouraged in how you can minister more effectively in today's world.  If you have an idea for a topic or a person for Tom to interview for a future podcast episode, email here.
By jeff 08 May, 2024
  Online Ministry creates lots of new opportunities for people to hear about Christ but also for those to serve at the Church. In this episode, Stuart sits down with Christina, who is a volunteer with Fox River VR. She shares her experience in VR from the female perspective, what it’s like to be a volunteer for a church in VR, and some of her favorite Kingdom wins from her time doing ministry in VR. Interested in learning more about bringing your Church into VR? Reach out to Stuart HERE! What do you think? Share your ideas below or on social media. Through The Church Digital, we are helping physical and digital churches better understand the discipleship process, and helping churches and church planters understand this and other decentralized mindset shifts. By taking this quick survey we can get you connect with a coach, resources and more. Also, check out our Facebook Group where we are encouraging people daily. 
By jeff 07 May, 2024
Moms are very special and can make such a huge impact in the lives of their family and children. That is why Mother's Day is so special day. It is a day where families can intentionally celebrate the huge impact mothers have on individuals, families, and the whole community. It serves as a reminder to honor, appreciate, and cherish the many contributions and sacrifices made by mothers.
By jeff 06 May, 2024
In this episode, Jeff Reed and Andy Mage discuss the concept of asynchronous community and its potential for churches. They define an asynchronous community as communication that does not happen in real time, such as through text messages, social media, or online forums. They emphasize that asynchronous community goes beyond simple conversation and engagement, fostering deeper relationships, support networks, spiritual growth, and involvement in service.
By jeff 02 May, 2024
In today's world, the internet has become an unparalleled platform for sharing about the hope and love of Christ to others. No matter what kind of minister you are, your goal is to reach as many people for Christ as possible. However, as an online and digital minister, there are certain platforms that help you reach as many people as possible. In particular, YouTube has emerged as a powerful tool that should not be overlooked.
By jeff 30 Apr, 2024
Spring is a great time...for allergies! While many people struggle with allergies this month, there has been a lot happening in the digital and online ministry world. To help you keep up with all the new digital and online ministry trends and happenings, The Church Digital Podcast Network and Blogs had a bunch we loved to share in regards to all the latest trends in social media, live stream, digital discipleship and all things online ministry so that you can minister and serve your online community more effectively.
By jeff 25 Apr, 2024
  At your Church you can do a lot of things to draw people closer to Christ. Today, Jake McNamara comes back on the podcast to share about how they used digital and online tools to support a Church campaign. He shares about what they did, what they learned and how it impacted they church and community.  Subscribe: Apple Podcast | Android | Spotify | RSS   ACTION STEPS: What do you think? What questions do you have?  Share your thoughts with us below or on social media If you want to connect with Jake check him out on Twitter. He is very active on social media so definitely connect with him if you have a question. Make sure you follow him as well! Join the Digital Bootcamp Facebook Group. To learn how to be more effective using digital tools for your ministry join the group. This is for ALL Ministers, not just Church Communicators or Social Media Managers as we share resources, tools and digital trends to see how we can reach more people for Christ with these tools. If you are in Digital Ministry, be part of the Digital Ministry Twitter Community. We share daily encouragement and support to help you do ministry in this online world more effectively.  Sign up for the Sidekick Scoop Weekly Email. Each Friday get a fresh email with content from all over the ministry world (especially online and student ministry topics) and be encouraged in how you can minister more effectively in today's world.  If you have an idea for a topic or a person for Tom to interview for a future podcast episode, email here.
By jeff 24 Apr, 2024
By jeff 23 Apr, 2024
Online ministry has become a powerful way to reach people with the hope and message of Christ. As technology continues to advance and develop, opportunities to create a sense of community and fostering meaningful connections online has become extremely vital. While there are many ways to do this, platforms. like Discord can serve as a valuable tool for online ministers.
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